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Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.01 22:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No amount of money will help you get your sec status back up unless someone has done that grind. Nothing is suddenly being generated out of nowhere.
Well plex is technically generated out of no where in game using with real dollars.
But I've always said Plex is pay to win (somewhat). Just no one believes me.
If you just want to throw money at the problem your characters don't have to grind. Someone else does though, but it doesn't matter to you because... Well... You just threw money at the problem.
People say you can't use plex to abuse the game mechanics, upset the economy, or become overly powerful.
I say, you haven't seen a lottery winner go nutz. (Though if you had tens of thousands of dollars to throw away you could just buy a seat on the CSM by bribing the right people).
Though, I personally don't mind the plex mechanic. It works and its rare that people abuse it because throwing hundreds of dollars at internet spaceships is sometimes foolish.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.01 22:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Plex is not pay to win. You are bad and you should feel bad.
-Liang
Why? If isk creates power and I can gather as much as I am willing to throw money at, isn't that paying for power?
Well, put it this way.... If winning the game means seeing your isk wallet go up by large amounts, then plexing seems to achieve that goal.
But if you don't see isk as a measurement but instead of kills or something that like... I put for this scenario....
Someone who bribes a merc corp with 1 plex a month for fleeting with them and getting on kill mails.
Sounds silly though as most pople aren't that liberal with their money. I'm just saying if a EVE neckbeard won the lotto he could theoretical use isk and plex to worm his way into places of "win" or whatever floats your boat... Isk... Kills... Position in an alliance.... I'm sure if someone slipped alliance managment 500 plex's every 6 months, they'd give this guy a nice place in the chain of command.
So far no one in EVE has won the lottery and won a place on the CSM through bribery. I'm just saying plex could lead to this. (Of course it might just be easier to give the leadership money under the table without bothering with plex).
Nothing wrong with it though I am saying. I'm just saying if you have obscene amounts of money you could pay to win whatever your goal posts are set to.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.01 23:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Except you can't gather as much as you're willing to throw money at, because someone else still has to go actually generate the isk in-game.
Of course. Factory owners get the proles to slave away for them. Isn't this power? I create an object of value that you want.... I hold power over you and make you slave away at the missions and mines to get it.
Notice I mention that people would use plex to pay for instead of isk. In my example I specifically said someone give mercs plex.... Not isk. I can create as much 30 day free time as I want to as I want to spend money on. Instead of trading it in for isk, I can trade it in for player interaction.
Again, it would be if I had enough plex to give 1 a month to a leader of a merc corporation so I could tag along and get free kills.
Sure the merc leader could turn him down for the sake of honor, but that power of that plex is sure a persuasive tool to get me to let him join the fleets as long as I could play a month for free every month.
Surely if I offered you a plex per month to perform X task, you would seriously consider doing it. That is called power.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.02 01:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
A few comments:
- Someone still has to go out and grind the ISK
- Flooding the market with infinite PLEX doesn't mean that there are infinite buyers
- Someone "paying" for all that is no more powerful than someone who is exceptionally good at manipulating the market or runs a powerful alliance or whatever.
You are bad and you should feel bad. /shrug
-Liang
Not only you are bad, but your are shameful to your high school/grade school education system due to your reading skills.
Did you not read my post? Is reading that hard for you?
I specifically said people could trade non-isk services for plex.
As in I could give people plex in exchange for their services without ever converting it to isk. Thereby not flooding the isk market, but yet still having power over other people by offering a good they desire.
And to the second post... Yes you can pay isk to buy plex, but isn't it damn likley you needed grind a large percentage of your time to buy that plex.
Oh and one thing that comes to mind, plex is only created when someone spends the money to pay CCP. There is no if, ands, or buts about it. If you had 1 trillion isk and no one bought any plex from CCP using real money, you'd still have to pay your $15 because there was no plex to be had.
Oh noes.
Seriously, if I had won the lotto I'd just pay you 1 plex a month to become a forum troll for me and make you agree with me. How about it? Would you like 1 plex to change your mind? If someone came out of the wood work and said "I'll pay you 1 plex per month to troll the forums and promote my view point." I'd bet you'd do it. I'ts a straight face lie if you said you wouldn't take on a simple task to play this game for free without every having to have to grind again.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.02 13:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Galaxy Pig wrote:Maybe if Tardbar cries enough about it, CCP will forsake their wildly successful, ingenius, and extremely lucrative PLEX system.
Oh lordy. If you read what I said from the first post you would know that I believe the Plex system works (and I participate in it quite frequently).
By no means I am saying CCP should scrap the system.
I just think people should admit that using real money to buy a plex gives you a time advantage over other players.
If you can be educated and honest about the sytem, I have no problems with Plex in its current form.
If you refuse to see how Plex gives you a small advantage you are just blind and refuse to accept the truth.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.02 18:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
The allegory of the shoe shine boy.
Once upon a time there was this town in which people loved to drive their cars. It would take $15 a month in the local curreny to drive about the entire month. Now there were three classes of people in the town. First there was the middle class who simply used their savings to pay for the $15 a month. Then there were the poor people who didn't have enough money or didn't want to pay the $15 per month. Then there were the rich aristocrats who had plety of money for the $15 and then plenty left over.
Now everyone in this town also loves to have shiney shoes. The middle class shines it on their own as well as the poor poeple. Now the rich aristocrats, being the lazy sods that they are, would rather have someone else shine their shoes for them.
So they go to the gas station and buy a gift certificate of $15 and then calls up a poor person and says "Hey boy! If you shine my shoes all week for me I'll give you this gift certificate! Its a deal!"
So the poor boy thinks it over and say "Ok I guess."
So they go to the rich aristocrats house and the shoe shine boy starts shining the shoes. The rich aristocrat all the while says "Shine it boy! Shine it real good! Don't you look me in the eye when I talk to you, boy!. Yeahh.... Do it. Make those shoes shine."
So after putting up with the abuse and hard work the poor boy gets his $15 gift certificate.
Now we can say that the boy is getting a good deal, but how can this be when the aristocrat made him work so hard and now the poor shoe shine boy has no time to shine his own shoes.
The shoe shine boy could decide to find another aristocrat to give him the gift certificate for less time worked, but it turns out there are many shoe shine boys in the town competing for the priveledge to shine shoes.
So the moral of the story is, someone else has to work less hard than you by using their wealth and therefore has a time advantage over you.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.02 18:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
P.S. Whatever takes you 5 minutes to plex several minutes leaves me with doubt. Its like those space rich people who claim to have hundreds of billions on the forums just to taunt people.
Even scamming and alliance income take lots of effort and time.
Even if your 5 minute story is true (which I highly doubt) then you are an extreme case where isk doesn't matter to you unlike the rest of the majority of EVE who apparently plays the bills directly for CCP. I mean if everyone made their plex money in 5 minutes then no one would buy plex.
Anyways... My point is that someone with lots of real world wealth can simply generate as much plex as he or she wants. This is an item of value to everyone because it gives you 30 days of game time. Or are you saying that is not valuable? It doesn't matter if they convert it to isk or not.
You do have a point. Some one with money can pay for the webpage and TS server putting them into a place of consideration amoung. This still means wealth has its advantage.
Otherwise if you keep saying you make your plex in 5 minutes, then I suppose you'll have to share how you make it with the rest of us, or I'll just stop considering you capable of reason and logic as well as a big fat liar. I bet you have a wallet image to back up your statement or at least a nice screen shot of your titan and various other toys you can afford while space rich.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.02 18:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:P.S. Whatever takes you 5 minutes to plex several minutes leaves me with doubt. Its like those space rich people who claim to have hundreds of billions on the forums just to taunt people.
Even scamming and alliance income take lots of effort and time.
...
Otherwise if you keep saying you make your plex in 5 minutes, then I suppose you'll have to share how you make it with the rest of us, or I'll just stop considering you capable of reason and logic as well as a big fat liar. I bet you have a wallet image to back up your statement or at least a nice screen shot of your titan and various other toys you can afford while space rich. I play the market. :) -Liang
From my understanding, that requires more than 5 minutes. You incomes may come in at 5 minute intervals, but I'm sure the rest of the traders would be insulted if you said thats all it takes. Don't you have hundreds of buy and sell orders that you check every 5 minutes throughout the day?
Don't tell me you have 3 market orders and log on once a day to see your wallet flash.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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362
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Posted - 2013.05.02 19:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:
So the moral of the story is, someone else has to work less hard than you by using their wealth and therefore has a time advantage over you.
Sure, but that isn't pay to win. The thing you don't seem to be considering is that this is true for both in game as well as out of game wealth. You have this weird conception that it takes a lot of time and/or effort to grind up enough ISK to buy a PLEX. The truth is that I can buy 4 PLEX for 5 minutes of work a month. And I don't even register on the scale of how space rich people can get. -Liang
For the majority of players it is apparently. Or have you heard about how no one pays their EVE subscription anymore.
So for the majority of players plex does offer a great time advantage.
Of course that are a handful of space rich fools who would boff at a 1 plex bribe, but for the majority of EVE players that would incite action.
I'm sure someone with enough plex, could simply buy his way into an alliance position and get a cut of their income until he is as space rich as you. Don't feel too special.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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362
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Posted - 2013.05.02 19:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:
From my understanding, that requires more than 5 minutes. You incomes may come in at 5 minute intervals, but I'm sure the rest of the traders would be insulted if you said thats all it takes. Don't you have hundreds of buy and sell orders that you check every 5 minutes throughout the day?
Don't tell me you have 3 market orders and log on once a day to see your wallet flash.
There's two ways to play the market. There's day trading and there's investment trading. I do investment trading - which basically means I don't try to manage hundreds of market orders every day, or every week, or every month. I manage a few market orders once every few months. I don't make as much ISK as someone who day trades, but I don't need to. -Liang Ed: My market alts go months without logging in.
Well good for you. For the life of me, I don't why if its so easy that all EVE players don't do it. Why do people even buy plex to sell if its that easy.
So if you are space rich as you say you are, it still doesn't mean that a plexer can get an advantage over the majority of other players.
Lastly, and this is the last I am going to talk about it because I am reaching my quota of daily trolls (maybe, maybe not), is that everyone has a price.
What is yours? 100 plex, 500 plex? 1000 plex? 10000 plex? You'd be set for life. Surely you would be a fool to turn down those numbers.
Its a shame I haven't won the lottery to try this experiment out.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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362
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Posted - 2013.05.02 19:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:
So the moral of the story is, someone else has to work less hard than you by using their wealth and therefore has a time advantage over you.
Sure, but that isn't pay to win. The thing you don't seem to be considering is that this is true for both in game as well as out of game wealth. You have this weird conception that it takes a lot of time and/or effort to grind up enough ISK to buy a PLEX. The truth is that I can buy 4 PLEX for 5 minutes of work a month. And I don't even register on the scale of how space rich people can get. -Liang For the majority of players it is apparently. Or have you heard about how no one pays their EVE subscription anymore. So for the majority of players plex does offer a great time advantage. Of course that are a handful of space rich fools who would boff at a 1 plex bribe, but for the majority of EVE players that would incite action. I'm sure someone with enough plex, could simply buy his way into an alliance position and get a cut of their income until he is as space rich as you. Don't feel too special. That's what I'm trying to point out - I'm not particularly space rich and I don't feel particularly special. There are so many people who have more ISK than me that I don't even know what to tell you. Your entire argument about having enough PLEX to buy your way into an alliance position is invalid and unlikely. What's more likely to happen is that you'll get all your PLEX stolen in a recruitment scam - and frankly there are much better ways to get to what you want anyway. For instance, offer to do alliance logistics. -Liang
Well I am talking about a payment plan. Obviously if you threw 500 plex at a person they would cut and run as the first choice. But if you offered to pay them over time which is why I specified this.
I suppose I should accept that you'll never understand this as you have some belief in that plexing isn't a time saver because of your personal activities. I just argue, for the majority of EVE players who spend hours a month grinding away to get their plex, the reality is obvious.
Carry on.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.03 18:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Quote:Yet another free pass for gankers with a fist full of cash. A FREE pass is exactly what it is NOT. They'll need a fist full of cash (ISK, presumably), afterall. Even if they get that cash by selling a PLEX that they bought with out-of-game currency, it is another capsuleer providing them with the ISK. This system of sec status for tags, as it is described, is just another way for different types of players to collaborate. If you have a problem with some ganker trading you ISK for security status, then you must also have a problem with some ganker trading you gametime for ISK, or trading you deadspace modules for ISK, or trading you ISK for ammo/ships, or trading you faction battleship BPCs for ISK, etc., etc., etc. It's just another way for people who don't like certain activities in the game to collaborate with people who are more willing to engage in those activities, provided there is an incentive. Some people don't want to mine. Some people don't want to shoot red crosses. Some people don't want to haul massive cargos long distances for little profit. Some people don't want to go through the tremendous effort of securing technetium moons in null security space. If we couldn't all trade with eachother, you'd have go mine those high end ores or run those DED 8/10's or whatever it is that YOU don't like to do in the game. Ultimately, if you don't want gankers, pirates, space-terrorists, etc. to be able to buy security status, don't sell it to them. You could go even further by heading out to low sec to disrupt their tag-farming operations. But, I think that's where the real problem is . . . you don't want to have to interact with all the other parts of this system that we call EVE Online. If you did that, you might have to wonder what the actual difference is between you and a "pirate".
Trade isn't really collaboration, but rather a mutual agreement to trade goods and services at a certain price. Collaboration is where I go get the tags for my friend because we are buddies for example for maybe an unsaid favor down the road. "Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" is collaboration.
I mean everytime I sell something on the market, its not for the benefit of the person giving me the isk. I could care less about their wellbeing. I just wanted to get rid of x product for y amount of isk.
After all, the Soviet Union and the USA traded for many years even though they were ideological enemies. No collaboration there. Trade is rather, I'll give you something you want for something I want and nothing more.
So trading plex with someone doesn't mean you are collaborating. It means you are trading for a mutually agreed price. You aren't really helping the other parties at all unless you purposely sold at a price lower than you really wanted.
Of course collaboration will occur, though. I mean if you sell products at a special low price to a friend, then I suppose that is collaboration. I'm sure there will pleny of space buds will collaborate giving each other tags for favors or special deals.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.03 19:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Trade is collaboration because it allows more than either of you could do individually.
-Liang
Trade is not collaboration. I checked both the definitions on merriam webster's dictionary and neither word mentions the other.
I mean do you collaborate with the grocery store every time you buy something? No. An employee might collaborate with you to find a product, but if you walked in, pulled something off the shelf, and bought it then no collaboration occured.
Think of it like this....
I go to the store and buy a six pack of beer. No collaboration involved.
Or
A friend offer's to go half in and we'll split a six pack. There is your collaboration.
In EVE terms, let's say I am a purveyor or Catalysts (which sometimes I am). I know in the back of my mind that someone could use this for ganking a miner but I don't care. I have no common goal with the gankers. I simply want to make a profit for the goods I sell. If I sell a catalyst at 1.5 million I make a nice profit. That is all I care about. I did not specifically collaborate with the gankers. The person might run level 2 missions for all I know, but I don't care either way. I made my money and I made a personal profit. I did not actually collaborate. In fact I personally feel that I have taken advantage of whoever bought it, because I get a benefit directly from selling at high price.
For an EVE example of collaboration, let's say it is known that I am a purveyor of Catalysts and a ganker messages me saying that he has an ideal gank target but is kind of low of cash. I know this person pretty well and know they will show me a KM when this is done, so I sell them catalyst for 500 thousand (quit less than my usualy 1.5 million). So in that case I am collaboring the my fellow ganker to achieve a dead miner.
So in those cases collaboration occurs.
Don't blame me. Look it up on the dictionary websites and see if collaboration or trade is mentioned in either articles.
Yes, I do believe in some cases collaboration can involve trade. Not all the time though. Collaboration means the benefit of both parites are concered by both parties. Trade can mean the parties are doing it out of self interest rather than the benefit of each other.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.03 19:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:I go to the store and buy a six pack of beer. No collaboration involved. That's normally called GÇ£robberyGÇ¥ not GÇ£buyingGÇ¥. Quote:Collaboration means the benefit of both parites are concered by both parties. He gets money; you get goods; both parties benefit. Seems pretty darn collaborative.
If I do something but not for the sake of doing it for someone else but out of self interest, I am not collaborating.
I mean does it feel like you are collaborating with the gas station every time you feel your car up with a full tank?
The gasoline company doesn't really give a damn whether you can drive around or not. It only wants the money. Its willing to give away gas for a certain amount of profit, but it does this out of self interest, not because it wants you to be able to drive.
Either way look at these two dictionary articles and tell me if they reference each other:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trade
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collaborate
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.03 19:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Fine. Don't believe the dictionary. Notice how collaboration isn't mentioned on the trade article in wikipedia. I mean gosh, something so important should be mentioned.. They aen't mutual to each other.
Collaboration can involve trade, but I'll continue to believe not all it does. Especially when one party is being taken advantage of.
You can continue to believe collaboration involves all trade. I hope that makes feel better and you can pat yourself on the back.
Another internet victory.
"One more such victory, and we shall be undone." -Pyrrhus 279 BC
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2013.05.03 20:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Who said it did?
Its ok. I really enjoy derailing this thread.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
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